I would just go up and talk to them, and we would talk for half an hour, and I'd walk away. I wasI was alwaysintimidated was not really my MO. No, it was a lot of fun. So, yes, something like that that comesan opportunity like that would derail any project for a period, but then we'd come back to our projects, you know. JUDITH RICHARDS: And you wanted to live in the middle of nowhere? So, you know, I hope that's really my contribution in that context. JUDITH RICHARDS: Would you say that's one of the most gratifying occasions, and that that kind of experience is a key element for driving you to that kind of scholarship and scholarly discoveries, driving you as a collector? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well, for me, personally, I think that, obviously, I feel much happier when something is on public view, and there's somebody telling someone something about it. And we can coverbecause between the three of us going through a catalogue, we will isolate out the nine things worth sharing, and then we share those nine things, and then we comment on them, like attribution comments, back and forth. And I'm trying to remember exactly what it hammered down at, but it hammered down at the reserve, which was something like [$]680,000, CLIFFORD SCHORER: to me. [1:02:00]. I sold all the export wares. You know, buying those, buying a good, you know, a very, very good Kangxi market period piece was expensive, even then. And they had to water it with a watering spray gun. CLIFFORD SCHORER: They painted half a million paintings in the Dutch Netherlands between 1600 and 1650. And, JUDITH RICHARDS: You didn't feel encumbered? I was, JUDITH RICHARDS: Yeah. Presumed owner of the real estate located at 21 Claremont Park, Boston. [00:06:02]. JUDITH RICHARDS: Are you meeting other collectors? I mean, it was, you know. ", CLIFFORD SCHORER: "We know he dropped out after two and a half years, but you want this guy." In 2019, Clifford Schorer, an entrepreneur and art dealer from Boston, stopped by the shop to purchase a last-minute gift. CLIFFORD SCHORER: But anyway, I mean, noI mean, I knew of the name and the connection, but there's never been any. Art collector Cliff Schorer recently located a missing painting by Dutch master Hendrick Avercamp after finding an image of it online on an $18 throw pillow. [00:56:00], CLIFFORD SCHORER: I do like art storage and handling. Followers. And to have somebody really sort of advocating, you know, going to bat for them the way he does, you know, with the Corpus Rubenianum especially, but, you know, with everything. If I esteem something aesthetically and the marketplace undervalues it in my humble and completely subjective opinion, it is a rare combination of forces because, in general, when I esteem something aesthetically, the marketplace almost universally esteems it financially, too, and as Chris Apostle and I joke, I have a very common eye. How long did you continue collecting in that field? [Laughs.] [00:48:00]. But I'm pleased that I was lucky enough to be at the right moment in history, where the relative scholarship might have been weaker than it could otherwise have been, which would allow me to find a rather large gap in the fence through which I could walk, if you see how careful I'm trying to be. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I think about a year. Judith Olch Richards (1947- ) is former executive director of iCI in New York, New York. And, you know, we can cover a lot of ground. Before that, I'd always assumed that I couldn't. [Affirmative.] [01:02:02]. $14. CLIFFORD SCHORER: That started 14 years ago, or 10, 12 years ago. Skinner had a published catalogue that had, you know, a paragraph of text on the better objects. He was largely self-taught. But, yes, there did come a time when I sold the house, where I said, you knowall the blue-and-white went to Sotheby's. [They laugh.]. I'm also doing other things. And that risk is that that day, that buyer is not in the room. Is your name Jim?" Or do I say nothing? I eventually liquidated Best Products. And in my new home in BostonI just got a small place to replace my big house because I needed a place to sleep when I'm in Boston. JUDITH RICHARDS: No, no, no, this is very important, JUDITH RICHARDS: what you were talking about. JUDITH RICHARDS: Was that because you didn't know that they would be able to teach you something? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Or related to artists that are interesting to me. I mean, you know, we have aboutI'm trying to remember how many photographs there are. You know. [00:10:00], JUDITH RICHARDS: Are there any art historians who are thinking about writing. You know, all of those things, and then you just let go, and it's, you knowit is aI think my psychology is well suited for that in a sense, because I don't have this great lust for the object; I have the lust for the moments that, you know, that sort of [00:36:00]. And I don't have that desire to have that at home, so, you know, I've been able to sort of, I guess, suppress my immune system enough that the lymphocytes are not attacking every object so I take them home [laughs], if you know what I mean. His hair was wet; I thought it was a Poseidon statue. So I went to the director's office. JUDITH RICHARDS: What's the name of the curator at the Met again who did the Gossart? JUDITH RICHARDS: In all those years when you were collecting in the field of Chinese porcelain, did you think it wasperhaps you should learn a bit of Chinese since you're so good at computer languages? And why was it particularlyand this isstill we're inbefore 2000? Plot #10205011. Yeah, short answer is, we like a schedule of art fairs to just basically move us around geographically. JUDITH RICHARDS: Into the prospective buyer's living room? Nine times out of 10, they would have been in the Albertina or in the Met or in, you know, fill in the blank. JUDITH RICHARDS: Because they seemed cheap? JUDITH RICHARDS: So the, in the '90s, you were beginning your studying, and you're focused on these key areas of Italian, CLIFFORD SCHORER: Again, it's a world of solitude, though; you talk about studying. So, yes, there's a plaque to my grandfather. [Affirmative.] CLIFFORD SCHORER: And that was talking to art historians, which is something. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Sure. And, you know, obviously, Bill Viola was looking at the Old Masters and thinking aboutyou know, he says as much in his own words. But has there been an increase in some competition, or the alternative? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well, the big London galleries. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And I would go visit their shops, and I wouldand I knew from the Chinese porcelain days, for example, Polly Latham, who's a Boston Chinese porcelain dealer. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Not a registrar. As a young man, he was apprenticed to a commercial lithographer for two years before becoming a freelance illustrator in 1857. And, you know, we were talking yesterday about the Museum of Science. Do you have a year that you, CLIFFORD SCHORER: I kind of had a hard stop at 1650 in Rome, but in Naples, I took it right to 1680. JUDITH RICHARDS: You're serving as your own contractor? The Frick's very focal; they're very small; they're very focal. But I'm not going back to school." Nevertheless, do you get calls? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Of course, I saw their objects. I said, you know, "They found it in 2004." CLIFFORD SCHORER: and he said, you know, "You need to be involved in this museum; you need to be involved with this museum." I mean, my desire to not live there. And I saw Daniele Crespi as an artist who is equally competent but died so young that he never really established his name. [They laugh.]. You have to let that go. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, I've always had a warehouse. Wikimedia Commons. So you know, they have a castI mean, there are only three complete specimens, so you basically getyou buy a cast of one if you want to show one. So, you know, I think that's why I say it's a hobby you can take to your tomb. And I think her contribution to the house was some amazing curtains, which cost me a fortune. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And easy to walk around, and easy to spend three days there, you know. So we both get on planes, and he goes and finds pictures in Berlin, here, there, and everywhere, and we pull together. We made our own paint. Winslow Homer was an American painter whose works in the domain of realism, especially those on the sea, are considered some of the most influential paintings of the late 19th century. JUDITH RICHARDS: Okay. Bree Winslow . So my grandparents, whom I adoredmy grandfather and grandmotherthey lived on Long Island, CLIFFORD SCHORER: They lived on Long Island in a town called Freeport. They take advice, and they build wonderful collections, and they're wonderful people, but you talk to them about things other than paintings. Now, the difference is that in, you knowobviously, in relative dollars, in 1900 you may have sold 1,001 paintings, but, you know, at an average price of 28 guineas. I mean, which ones had merit? Yes. [00:28:00]. Funding for this interview was provided by Barbara Fleischman. JUDITH RICHARDS: When youin those early years, did you have a goal? So if there's something I need to learn, I will learn it, you know, if I have to. So, you knowand I'm making that upbut, yeah, I mean, there were pictures probably ranging fromI remember Constables for 14,000, which would have been a tremendous amount of money in 1900, down to literally three pounds or 28 shillings [laughs], you know. Your perspective is unusually broad, at least it used to be. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I know them by sight. [en] Vital records: Clifford J Schorer at +Archives + Follow. And so, those are wonderful. JUDITH RICHARDS: And you spent four years there? And they basically said, "Well then, audit any course you want." Clifford's current address is 21 Claremont Prk, Boston, MA 02118-3001. So, you know, when bold ideas come, I'm the kind of, you know, the vetting board for the bold ideas, and I enjoy that. Rich Dahm, co-executive producer and head writer of The Colbert Report. If these people figure in. You have to go to the source. Or is it changing? JUDITH RICHARDS: So there's strategy meetings with Anthony. JUDITH RICHARDS: Have there been any surprises that you've come across in terms of this, being involved as you are with Agnew's? I think there are two different pieces of advice, of course. I went to Thessalonica; I got in a rental car. I mean, I have a fewI have a print from a Bulgarian art show from 1890. They will charge the buyer 20 to 25 percent." I mean, it was basically, you know, not anyou know, it was like you're trying to pass the day away; you're walking around the city; and there's this building that's 40 feet wide, 60 feet deep [laughs], you know, and you go in, because it's open, and, you know, they charge nothing to go in. JUDITH RICHARDS: level of your interest. Like, you knowand the same thing. Clifford Schorer Adjunct Professor; The Eugene Lang Entrepreneurship Center at Columbia Business School. I think that isactually, I think five years is November of this year. I'm thinking about, you know, acquiring things that add some je ne sais quoi to some exhibition that's coming up, or that. [Affirmative.]. And my rooms were, you know, burgundy, and you know, very, very deep colors. CLIFFORD SCHORER: yeah. [00:30:00], CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. He was a good discoverer. And they're dressed like people that came off the farm. So I was born in 1966 in Rockville Centre, New York. 9:30 a.m.12:00 p.m. It was a fantasy shop that wasn't going to exist, but it was just an idea of how I would pass my time, because I need something to do. JUDITH RICHARDS: You mentioned the Snyders House, the Rubens House, and one more. For example, I am a big fan of [Giulio Cesare] Procaccini. So that would be '83? I think that's fantastic. No, no. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So now there's really, you know, two sales worth attending. [00:14:00], So the little paintings on my Chinese export porcelain, the engravings on the Columbus series of stamps, theyou know, all of those things, all of those, you know, progressing all the way up to, you know, big, narrative, allegorical paintings of the Baroque: those are all this kind of marriage of conception and highly skilled craft. So then flash-forward three years, and it's back on the market again, with a slightly lower estimate this time. I mean, it was a field where I think I probably bought 300, 350 pieces total, and over the course of probably three and a half years. JUDITH RICHARDS: Having that expand? [1:00:00], And when a gallery approaches the person, and says, "Look, we're going to catalogue it; we're going to do this; we're going to take it to this city; we're going to show it at this fair; we're going to do these things; we're going to pay the insurance on it; we're going to pay the shipping and all of these things, and, you know, we'd like to earn 15 percent." JUDITH RICHARDS: The competitors are in equal situations? [00:18:01], CLIFFORD SCHORER: So, yes, and it has to be opportunistic. I bought a cash-flow business, that I don't need to babysit. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes. But for me, it's the combination of the conception and the craft, so the conception is very important to me; knowing that [Guido] Reni stole his figure from the Apollo Belvedere because it was here when he was there is interesting to me and Iyou know, to find that out, if I didn't know it before, either by accident or by some kind person sharing it with me, I'myou know, it adds a layer to my experience of the art that's different from my aesthetic experience of the art. Have youhow do you go abouthow in those early years, how did you go about defining and refining what exactly you were looking for? And that was March of 1983. And also, art, to me, is the thing that can carry you to the grave, which, you know, the trades that I do, I'm as good as my last project in the trades that I do. Periodically, they'll have them here in New York when theythey'll have a dinner with the Belgian ambassador, and they do this sort of thing. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And also, you know, the sort ofthe mere suggestion that the Agnew's family would ever deal in such a thing [laughs], the bristle with which that question was met gave me great comfort that they actually didn't. So it comes up at Sotheby's. So, I think18, 19, 20, in that area, I spent 26 weeks a year outside the United States. So there wasn't alwaysthere was this idea that they werethey must have been from one commission, because they were the same size, but there was not a full knowledge of what this commission was until at least the last decade, when all these pieces came together. The circle was so small that you were sitting at a table with everybody that could be interested in that same object, at the same table, and you could actually talk to all of them. Our older colleagues might have found it charlatanism, but that's understandable. I had to advocate and argue for it, and that did sort of achieve the goal I had set for it, which is a relatively universal acceptance. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Maybe, maybe so. And then, you know, I appreciate it; even if they don't know who I am, I appreciate it. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes. [Laughs.] JUDITH RICHARDS: yeah, but it's so different to really try to do it yourself, JUDITH RICHARDS: read about it in a book. CLIFFORD SCHORER: That would've been a little bit early. There can beyou know, that's much more of a contemporary problem. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And it was justI thought the frame was incredible. But the scholarship at the time said, "Wait a minute, that looks like a preparatory drawing for that painting," which then changed the attribution of the painting to a better attribution. So, it's an interesting, you know, circle. I would think that you did have a lust for the object, with all the objects you've accumulated. JUDITH RICHARDS: Did you buy a seat for it? Clifford J. Schorer, Producer: Plutonium Baby. She wrote the Crespi book. CLIFFORD SCHORER: No. And that's reallythat was more of, you know, expanding the things that I could do. Or not. But I think that I'm not willing to roll that roulette wheel. And I mean, when Iaestheticsmy aesthetics are a little sensitive, so I do haveI did buy a Gropius house that Hans Wegner did the interior of. I rememberI remember in those days the things that I brought on Pan Amoh, my God. It's wonderful. You know, because she died in this plague. And I remember the Museum of Natural History, which haunted me later as an obsession with paleontology. This interview is part of the Archives of American Art Oral History Program, started in 1958 to document the history of the visual arts in the United States, primarily through interviews with artists, historians, dealers, critics and administrators. JUDITH RICHARDS: Has it impacted your collecting as you imagined it would or in any different way? JUDITH RICHARDS: Is there a certainand that's a kind of a new model of art storage, with viewing facilities. So that'syou know, the reality is though, that that painting will never come my way, so I have toto go back to this question, has my philosophy about this changed in the course of it? And there were some of them that were good enough to deceive the best. Massachusetts native Clifford Schorer said the painting was used as security for a loan he made to Selina Varney (now Rendall) and that he was now entitled to it, the Blake family having failed to make a claim in a US court. CLIFFORD SCHORER: But I think, in the past, they've been pretty good in the most important areas. And they're outside smoking cigarettes, and they're not talking about art. And, you know, for example, Anthony decided he wanted to do a Lotte Laserstein show. JUDITH RICHARDS: Do they focusexcuse my ignorance. So. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And again, it's very subjective. JUDITH RICHARDS: Yes. And it impacts different institutions in different ways, but it's a big issue in the art world. Jon Landau I certainly know more. CLIFFORD SCHORER: O-C-K-X, I believe. JUDITH RICHARDS: Are there specific publication projects that you would be interested in seeing them do? When you collect, does it play any role in what you're thinking about what? [1:02:00], CLIFFORD SCHORER: It's by Antonio de Pereda. Yeah. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well, in Virginia you can get a license at 15. Good afternoon. CLIFFORD SCHORER: that's fair. You know, fill in the blank; provenance issues, you know. Because I think that's where you can reallyyou know, that's where you can hurt it, I think, is if you need to run it as a shop, because it really is a five- or six-year business cycle. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I had a lot of walls in this house. JUDITH RICHARDS: You're keeping just the gallery in London. We just have a little more time today perhaps, if you want to take more time? CLIFFORD SCHORER: I'm not smart enough to make an artist's reputation from whole cloth, soand I'm also not manipulative enough to make an artist's reputation by employing strategic curators to insert them into collections. I mean, it wasI remember the restoration process took four or five months. There's one area I meant to touch on, and that is the competition, the relatively recent change, as you talked about the auction houses becoming retail and directly competing with galleries, even though galleries offer this tremendous educational service. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And, you know, I visit English country homes now with Agnew's all the time, and I see these panel paintings that have been hanging in the same spot for 350 or 400 years, CLIFFORD SCHORER: And they're in good shape, because the English climate is very humid. So. [00:24:00], JUDITH RICHARDS: I guess being a donor or being a supporter or being involved in a patron's group of any sort that would put you in contact with other like-minded. JUDITH RICHARDS: Yeah. JUDITH RICHARDS: There are new warehouses all the time, I think, going up, and there's that new one in Long Island City. JUDITH RICHARDS: You're going to art auctions? But there is a long-term plan that the museum and I are talking about for the things they want to keep. Or. And I stillI still have quite a few drawings that are related to paintings that are interesting to me. JUDITH RICHARDS: Have you ever tried to, or wanted to, learn how to do any of the kinds of ceramic work or painting or whatever yourself to see what's entailed? Any object there that might have a mark. The transcript and recording are open for research. I said, "Well, you know, that's exciting news." Of the blue-and-white, and the highly decorated, sort of the Qing period stuff, that's all gone. I don't even remember the day. It's the same problem. I thought it really worked well. CLIFFORD SCHORER: No. And I said, "Well, I'm not going back.". And I was so, Oh, my God, you know, that's incredible. And I've been in Boston ever since. They also had a book that went with the Procaccini called Procaccini in America, which was a very well-researched book by Brigstocke, and I was very impressed. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Even though they're Americans, through and through. So, yeah. I mean, I think it was a natural evolution. No, as a matter of fact, I mean, obviously, we have great respect, and we like the feeling of our gallery in London, and wherever possible, if we can show a painting in kind of our home, you know, bring people into the living room and have the painting on the wall and sit down in front of it and talk about it. And she said, "Well, I'd borrow the Luca Giordano from your living room," because I was closing my house up. CLIFFORD SCHORER: No. I would say George Abrams is the kind of collector that, you know, is, you know, someoneI spent, I don't know, nine hours with him on Sunday. CLIFFORD SCHORER: That was based on opportunism, because some of the greatestsix of the greatest Pre-Raphaelite paintings ever made were available to us at that moment. I love that, CLIFFORD SCHORER: They're building brand-new buildings, yeah. Researchers should note the timecode in this transcript is approximate. [00:20:00]. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And the flea markets then were. So, CLIFFORD SCHORER: In Spain, in Madrid. JUDITH RICHARDS: And his work came to your attention how? Clear the way for the new. [Laughs.]. CLIFFORD SCHORER: as we have today. But I think that afterand this is why I talk about when the Chinese entered the marketplace. You know, there was aI forget who the famous collector was, that says, "I deal to collect." CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, an earthly attribute. And that's the way that relationship went for years and years and years, and then, all of a sudden, I popped up sort of with them as a dealer. Is that something that you are thinking about? Chinese Imperial you didn't often see, you know, in a Paris shop. No, I was 15 and a half. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I'm not that intelligent. And I got out of school and I moved down to Virginia, where I got a job in computer programming. JUDITH RICHARDS: You said it's atthey're both at the Worcester? And the segue to art was clearlyand I see it very clearly now. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Spending more time going back and forth, yes. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So, I mean, I would say that all of those things would be exciting and fun to do, but unfortunately, I don't have the ability to do them all. JUDITH RICHARDS: ancestry. JUDITH RICHARDS: or show people the works there? I think they have seven to 10 loans of mine, so there are some things there that, you know, they would like to have long-term, soand other things that they probably don't need necessarily, but they were interested in having for a particular purpose. You know, the average home really can't take a panel painting because of the climate changes, you know, the humidity changes. JUDITH RICHARDS: to the Imperial porcelain? So a friend of mine that I had known came to me and said that he thought that the library at Agnew's would be available, and, you know, that was interesting to me. You know, if it rises to that levelI mean, there's an old joke about the museum world is nothing but one big conflict of interest. You know, there are sort of monographic shows of sort of the unsung heroes of art history that I'm very excited, you knowwhen Maryan Ainsworth did the [Jan] Gossart show at the Met, you know, those kinds ofthe Pieter Coecke van Aelst tapestry show with a few paintingsthose kinds of shows are always extraordinary for me, you know, the things that not everybody is going to go see, but that, you know, obviously, it tells a story about an unsung name who may have been either the teacher of someone who went on to achieve, you know, sort of, international fame, or the originator of ideas that became part of our [00:24:14]. And that was because they could be. JUDITH RICHARDS: She lives in Italy though? So that's a modern phenomenon, where you have this conflict between, you know, a museum, institutional curator and private collectors who may desire that their collection end up on view and the curator may have opposing views. It was ridiculous. We know that T Dowell, Tylden B Dowell, and five other persons also lived at this address, perhaps within a different time frame. I've been giving them photographs for their book of my collection of works, and I know they've been sort of on the hunt for other good photographs. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Who had the photographs, because I would never have believed that was an antiquity. So, you know, there was that frustration, that you can never haveyou know, you can never have an encyclopedic stamp collection because you're always going to bethe lacuna is the same lacuna every other collector is going to have. He's the responsible party, solely responsible. And said that "If you don't fire him, I'm going to sue you." JUDITH RICHARDS: Is that an interesting area for you to think about, the evolving nature of art storage? JUDITH RICHARDS: So you donated the piece, or you donated the funds for them to purchase the piece? You know, because at the time that's not the way they thought about those things. JUDITH RICHARDS: Mm-hmm. It didn't say exactly, but it was a level. The things I brought into the passenger cabin. But I don't think she'sI think she's not an Italian native. So. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Oh, definitely. I mean, I would call Frederick Ilchman; I would call somebody, and I would say, "Who should I talk to about this person?" Web. I'm not sure exactly the year, but I remember there were a few what I would consider to be ambitious acquisitions that I made that I was very, very pleased with, where there wasn't as much competition as I anticipated. You know. So, you know, very technical people, but not, you knowI would say the learning was lacking, but the technical acumen was there. JUDITH RICHARDS: So, in thoseyou mentioned your great-grandfather and his collectionwhen you were in grade school, and even in high school, what were your main interests? But, yeah, I mean. 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