Then in great heresy he says Mormons have the same Jesus as evangelicals! Within that letter was something that broke my heart and caused me to realize that James MacDonald is a mean, churlish, old man that should never be allowed anywhere near a pulpit. In our common language, we use the word elder to describe one who is older than ourselves. There has been financial fraud committed by Harvest and its leaders. I guess the other 25% are hoping to get some plum positions. Noevangelical: Lowlandseer, I remember it vividly because our child was very, very deeply disturbed and upset, AS WAS I. I had not ever seen the movie, nor intended to ever see it. Bible Follower | The Bible contains a wealth of knowledge and wisdom that's waiting for us to unearth it. Max: My understanding is that Driscoll also consulted with Gateway. (Dee). Keep reading. Or maybe their model for doing church is wrong? Its life giving. The fellowship network of about 120 churches, many of which still have Harvest in their name . TS00: Agreed. I, personally, do find truth to be something to rejoice in. I will reflect on your honesty and embrace the possibilities. Im convinced that an antinomian spirit has taken control of some ministries, where church leaders feel they have been released by grace from the obligation of observing the moral law. I suppose those are the sort of preachers Jesus had in mind when He said: Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. What in the world is going on? Like they are so far in and so much of their identity comes from being part of the group that the thought of just leaving would be like jumping off of a cliff? Crony to cronyand I hear you and see it all the timebut to me? And just because there is a list of qualifications doesnt mean that men wont lie to gain access, or construct a pseudo religion to hide in. dee: You chose to serve in a church with incredibly stupid, unbiblical and mean people in charge. For one of his theatrical performances at HBC shortly before his demise, JMac posed as a homeless man to make a sermon point I suppose he was so relevant, you know. The price has been paid, sin and death vanquished, and all may come to the Son for meat and drink with no money and no payment. Max: I suspect that even MacDonald started out with good intentions (maybe). Walking in the light means not having to cover anything up and not belly aching when God Himself is the one shouting truth and revealing things from His Mountaintop. Dont let the hypocrisy of men lessen your trust in God. Jeff Chalmers All of the above is not an option, but it seems hard to pick one over any other. Conversational-type sermons, contemporary worship music, come-as-you-are. The only reason you dont want exposure is because you dont want damage to your film career. And he didnt say crap, at least publicly. SiteSeer: Is there a foolproof system that cant be gamed? I understand your point and the historical information. Color me cynical here but Im thinking his last name and his media prowess was what was driving that. Bidding me still to fight on. Pingback: Quote for the day | Civil Commotion, When was this statement made and to whom? , Info on the photo is apparently wrong. Why? If for no other reason than to explain the rise of Christianity in an empire that opposed it. You sound like an attorney who just sent me a letter stating that I posted false statements by a victim. Our goals in writing these letters were accomplished, and its unfortunate that people are making them public. It seems to me that there is a serious idolatry issue at HBC. Thus, I try to insert IMO where applicable. Which direction you take religion or relationship determines whether you discover Truth or not. Short films include award-winning "The Ride" and. If a cynic like me can be taken in, naive, trusting folks are easy prey. Law Prof: I think Sinclair Lewis was an emotional infant and had a lot more in common with Elmer Gantry than he had the introspection to see. The whole cycle, from start to implosion and disbanding the church, was about five years. he has no tore proof to offer me. Was it released or leaked? It appears he has been a poser, a bully and a thug for a very long time. Giving is another way we worship Him and it allows us to demonstrate that He is more important to us than material things. Dallas, his dad Jerry Jenkins, and James MacDonald also played poker together. I wish that the decision to be a public figure in this scandal was left to the individual, not to third parties. Dee has been at it for over ten years. We started as a group of 18 people, who gathered from five different churches across the northwest suburbs and desired to form a new church. Lets face it, in this era one can access whatever superior teaching is preferred in the comfort of their home or car. They should no longer be allowed to exempt themselves from the oversight which non-religious entities must abide by. I only point out that the historical evidence is not what we protestants want it to be. If you continue to use this site we will assume that you are happy with it. Lord knows weve had enough explosions in the modern church. *whispers* Its possible it wasnt three years. But if conflict is the goal, keep on keeping on. . He promised never to leave me, Having the equipment available to produce, record, and stream the services completely online, Harvest was able to continue to preach Gods Word unapologetically and worship unashamedly. . He has directed and produced over a dozen . Not exactly the mild and loving spirit of Jesus. I think these gifts are operating as God intended, outside of the systems weve designed and created. . You chose to serve in a church with incredibly stupid , unbiblical and mean people in charge. Through prayer and provision, a permanent location for our North Shore Campuswas found in Highland Park, in September of 2015. Also, we must note who it is that the elders have authority over. whether agnostic, atheist, muslim, hindu, buddhist, zoroastrian, wiccan, mormon, straight, lgbtq,. EXACTLY the same as at Willow Creek Community Church. Confession is good for the soul. Have seen the exact same thing. If the elders are in place primarily because they are buds of the pastor (yes-men), wealthy, prominent in the community, popular in the church but do not meet the Biblical qualifications to serve in that sacred office if there is no evidence in their lives of being filled with the Holy Spirit and being above reproach then you have a Harvest Bible Chapel or Willow Creek mess waiting to happen, regardless of the size of the ministry. Apparently, many pastors have opted to preach the gospel for the wrong reasons .. to toss out the name of Jesus now and then while they work their deception to benefit themselves. I can completely understand why Dee wouldnt want people here to be dragging stuff out and speculating about a teenage boy. Or maybe its the era of the Judges, when every man did what was right in his own sight.. Thompson started questioning MacDonalds spending in 2006, when he saw the pastors home in Inverness featured in Chicago magazine. His client, the alleged molester, told him they were false. Very useful and informative. and a Pastor. Good Lord, how does that happen?! Or are we to believe he just held back on refuting all this defamation out of a righteous desire to turn the other cheek? True. Wasnt it Groucho Marx who once quipped, I would never join an organization who would have me as a member? Many needy men get their egos stroked, while the women see through the charade. This man has no shame. I tend to trust her judgment here. Ive heard the thunder roll. And theres a high likelihood this statement will get them expelled.. This says you are not comfortable with God being in control, or believe he has the power to work in these earthly maters. Trust in Jesus and his completed work is what makes one a child of God. Was it because he met the qualifications for eldership? But if these offices are wrong it means the wheels fell of of the Church extremely early in its history. I just found out about it a few minutes ago. Ishy: Noevangelical: So do you think this is something like Stockholm Syndrome? Clement may be writing as if those offices are an established fact, but for all we know, they could have been set up a few years previously as an organizational attempt and they were used to it. You shouldve released your statement the first time around. Harvest Bible Chapel is a large evangelical organization with congregations across the metro Chicago area. Whew! Dallas Jenkins: Still plenty of room on the downside, I reckon. At a lot of these churches, you try and start an unapproved Bible study on the side, theyll shut it down or insist on putting an approved church leader in control. He is already in the process of trying to reboot his digital ministry (WITW)and is romancing wealthy donors in Naples, FL from the $1.2M home in Naples that Harvest rented for him. I was there for 10 years and my daughters both attended Harvest Christian Academy and I had been asked to consider eldershipwe left in 2012 after repeated warnings from former elders. THEY are the ones who the Lord calls upon to should humbly shepherd the flock. But they wernt. All kidding aside, may you, Jessica, Ryan Mahoney, Dee Parsons, any many others who are continuing to fight the good fight be richly blessed. And it is bad form to hijack a thread to comment on a topic when asked not to. As Paul cautioned the church at large to beware of Alexander, he has done us much harm, so the watchblogs speak to inform and warn other believers to be wary of certain leaders. The NT writers frequently warn that false teachers, wolves, charlatans will enter the church to lead people astray; others are already there and will eventually show their true colours. Since beginning its training center, Harvest Bible Chapel has helped established over 193 church plants across the country and around the world. RadMan7: Credibility has been diminished. The elders in one church have no say over those in another. something in the Chicago water, perhaps. Their goals are solidly biblical, and the show appears to be bearing fruit to the glory . This verse came to mind: For it is the time for the judgment to have begun from the house of God; and if from us first, what will be the outcome of those disobeying the gospel of God? (1 Peter 4:17) The business-first model that seems so pervasive and knocks down just about any scrutiny until there is videotaped evidence would seem to fit somewhere in that spectrum, no? I dont see how were in disagreement, at least in terms of practical application. We simply interpret the words through a different filter. Our pastor, weeping, said it was one of the greatest movies he ever saw. They are not pretty. I share this for all who, like me, are overcome with new sadness, pain and loss amidst the HBC, Willow, Catholic church, ECFA, SBC, GFA, etc. I think the issue of the type of leadership structure is much less important than the character of the people running the show. If all this was that important to the leaders they would have been apoplectic at what they witnessed from JM. Look to your own flocks people of HBC. When I first started reading your comment I thought it was serious and that I would have to redact the tweet. You are used to being in control of who sees what. Watch Video. Max: That clearly does not describe James MacDonald and HBC elders who are coming forth one at a time to confess their roles in the great deception in Chicago. Turning a blind eye was a full failure. Well, I assume that you are the Dallas Jenkins referred to in the OP, but I have no way of confirming that. I love you, TS100, and I appreciate so much of what you say. Looking at the history of newer religious organizations created in the era of print is instructive and revelatory. You have not taken full responsibility for your actions. Youre welcome. God will not, will not let you go. Any truth about MacDonald as a bad-boy preacher needs to be made public! We must realize that there are certain qualifications given concerning elders. I hope somebody has kept good documentation somewhere of all such dealings that could be produced as evidence. It just means there was (and is) nothing in that church resembling a true church. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: I will admit I now find it kind of shocking that a guy who never knew Jesus in life could muscle his way in and call himself an apostle among the other apostles. There are many claims on this blog but very little proof from original sources, only alleged copies and pastes. I have a peace in knowing At this point however the narrative cannot be controlled by people because God Almighty is acting now. CJ Mahaney spread $$$ which brought him years of support from the Calvinista leaders.. but ultimately it means people are brainwashed into being acquiescent, passive, accommodating, maintaining their silence. Bad decisions lead to pain. I dont have any answers. Perpetua herself (the presumed writer of most of the Acts) also spends a lot of time talking about prophetic dreams and suchlike. He has not let us down, and even now is exposing these wolves. whether agnostic, atheist, muslim, hindu, buddhist, zoroastrian, wiccan, mormon, straight, lgbtq,. ++++++++++++++++++++. I am there; have been close to 8-years now. what are these things you see in such people that you identify as being grace-filled? Ive never felt a humbling that felt particularly good, at least short-term. Most of those who attended my former Calvinist Church have wandered back to non-Reformed churches; several others have rejected God altogether. Dallas, however, prefers a different medium film. Law Prof: He was evidently so invested in making the Dramatic Point and leaving a Big Impression that I dont think he considered anyone else at that moment. having faithful children We use cookies to ensure that we give you the best experience on our website. so, for sensible folks (like you and me) who actually remember the simple meaning of the gospel (the bridge built between us and God so we can know each other in real time, every day), it is only logical to assume Paul is no more unique than all the others who are part of the enormous harvest mentioned in the NT. The Four Pillars of HBC: 1 - PROCLAIMING the authority of God's Word without apology. Samuel Conner: I read an article yesterday about small mainstream churches driven to the wall by the migration to the megas being forced to lease their vacant during the week facilities to small businesses in order to generate enough income to keep the doors open. I am very glad for all your comments on this site. Retch, gag, and barf, it gets old, it really does. The evidence points to a scam designed to benefit one person only. He is best known as the creator, director and co-writer of The Chosen, the first multi-season series about the life of Jesus of Nazareth.. Jenkins's career is focused on faith-based media. Crazy, huh? Usually being replaced by a building program or a new strategic plan or a new school blah blah blah. But you could change the future by using your failure for good. This all happens when we gather, grow and go together as followers of Jesus. He is best known as the creator, director and co-writer of The Chosen, the first multi-season series about the life of Jesus of Nazareth. Does that make you manly? Sad. For the one or two people who read ALL the way through these comments to my own. Consider the following Scriptures: Now the apostles and elders [PRESBUTEROS] came together to consider this matter. (Acts 15:6), Let the elders [PRESBUTEROS] who rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially those who labour in the word and doctrine. (1 Timothy 5:17), For this reason I left you in Crete, that you should set in order the things that are lacking, and appoint elders [PRESBUTEROS] in every city as I commanded you (Titus 1:5), Is anyone among you sick? How would any of these men, with limited real life educations and skills, replace the six or seven figure incomes they were receiving, when you add in the benefits? But no matter what, it will get bent quickly if thats whats happening. If a church tries to appoint elders who dont meet the qualifications for eldershipthe church dies. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: So, so much we dont know. In church context, it may even be worse than the secular business context because in addition to the objective institutional power wielded by the narcissist CEO, there is the presumption of divine authority which legitimates the misuse of power. Harvest Bible Chapel Hillsong United James Dobson James MacDonald Jason Sobel Jenna Browder Jennie Lusko Joel Smallbone John Hessup Jonathan Roumie Joni Lamb Jordan Feliz Kari Jobe Katie Torwalt Kay Robertson Kirk Cameron KLOVE Leanna Crawford Levi Lusko Mandisa Marcus Lamb Matt Hagee Matt Maher Mavericm City Michael Jr Phil Robertson Phil Vischer We were in a panic, didnt have enough hands to scramble around and cover all their eyes, which, up to this point, had been quite innocent. They engineered the black funds and the worst of the financial abuse. All that we could come up with was that we, and they, were faithful and generous givers and attenders of the mens bible study. Backfired twice over. I believe he also was something of an unwitting prophet, possibly used by the Lord Himself, to reflect a mirror back at U.S. Christendom. Unless it was a danger to someone. John: When I now go to a church, I want to speak with elders. Im amazed to find Im not alone on this. However, a Calvinist fanboy and wannabe celebrity showed up spouting Piper, Driscoll and insisted on hiring a guy from Sovereign Graces mothership-CLC. Yes, we must preserve the right to arm bears. There is no such thing as a single pastor leader role that even exists. I wonder whether it might not be better to simply abandon the entire property-owning paradigm and return to the original practice of meeting in public places (for large groups) and in homes (for small groups). All our campuses gathered together for three consecutive Saturdays of the summer Ravinia style. Sure, an innocent, upright person could be naively drawn into something they thought was worthy. Hmmm it appears that Lauren and Amy are the same person. Particularly good, at least short-term network of about 120 churches, many which... 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